This week's budget meeting included a presentation from the Timmins Taxpayers Association, providing council with their input to consider when constructing the 2017 City of Timmins operating budget.
The group, which requires a paid membership, led by Logan McMeekin and Alex Szczebonski, delivered the presentation in roughly 11 minutes. What followed was 50 minutes of rebuttals, rants, and bickering. At the beginning of the TTA presentation, McMeekin stated that they weren't there to debate.
Councillor Joe Campbell was the first to respond, and thanked them for their efforts.
"While I agree with a lot of it, I just want to make a couple comments about The Mac," he said, in response to the TTA pointing out the age of the facility, as well as their opposition to forking out money for a study on a possible expansion.
"It's concrete and steel. It could probably last another 25 years, without doing anything to it. Both the Dave Keon Arena in Rouyn, and Memorial Gardens in North Bay, both underwent extensive renovations to older buildings, and I'm sure they didn't do them to last two or three years. So the potential is there for The Mac," said Campbell.
Both Rouyn-Noranda (Huskies) and North Bay (Battalion), have multi-million-dollar major junior franchises as tenants in those facilities.
"Whether we do it or not, is a question of affordability. Everybody would like to go out and get another $60-million multiplex," he said.
Next up was Councillor Bamford, who told the TTA that they were essentially on the same team.
"Sometimes when the taxpayers association comes here, I think there's a sense that you have to 'convert' us," he said. "All of us try to do our best to keep our costs down, and so when you're talking to us we're really on the same side. What happens is when we look at the individual items, sometimes we have to make a decision that is good for a group of people, not necessarily for all the taxpayers, and so we have to weigh those pros and cons," he said.
Bamford went on to say that there is 'a problem' with the property tax system in Ontario.
He also told the TTA that there is a 'myth' going on in the community regarding the KMPG report.
"There's a myth that city council is just ignoring a lot of these things. There's dispute around the table around what we should implement and what we shouldn't," said Bamford.
His final point to the TTA was that they should consider lobbying the provincial government on behalf of the city, as many of the economic issues facing Timmins are not locally unique.
Councillor Rick Dubeau said he agreed with the TTA's idea that Timmins should look to reduce its taxes in 2017.
"There's no reason why we shouldn't be doing that," he said, adding that the city right now, has a 'unique opportunity'.
"We can downsize our staff to attrition. The last of the baby boomers are retiring, we really have to look at how many do we need to replace. We have to look hard and fast at that," said Dubeau.
Councillor Mike Doody said there was 'certainly areas he disagreed with.'
"When the KPMG report came in, a lot of it had to do with reducing services. If somebody wants to run on that, at election time, that you want to reduce the quality of services that you're giving in the community, I welcome you to do that," he said bluntly, before turning his attention to the issue of Golden Manor.
He said that a lot of private care facilities simply 'don't want' to care for patients suffering from dementia, and that Golden Manor is by far the first choice for local seniors.
"Our forefathers, the people who had the vision to build the Golden Manor, for people who worked in the mines. Not well-to-do people, just worked in the mines, had a miner's salary, and when they retired they had a place to go to. They had a room and a couple of chairs. When you say the difference between a non-profit and a for-profit, when its for-profit, its for-profit," said Doody, adding that he was appalled that McMeekin and Szczebonski continue to choose to pick on the Golden Manor.
"It's not easy to run a municipality these days. Whether its here, or Sudbury, or Sault Ste Marie, or North Bay, in between, Kapuskasing or whatever. But I think we have an obligation at a certain point, certainly if you're giving a service, you should try and give the very best," he said.
While it seemed like he was wrapping up his rebuttal, he decided to fire away at the TTA's request for OPP costing numbers, as a potential replacement for Timmins Police Service.
"Do you have any idea at all?" he asked the TTA, stating that the city has already gone through OPP costing numbers years ago.
Szczebonski sniped back.
"I know what kind of services other communities have, other nursing homes have. I know I know how to read a balance sheet. I know what it takes for an operation. I know how to run a building. So when somebody tells me 'oh, the services are better', show me, because I've been to some of the better homes in the province. I've made that effort. You want to find out and see how a home is done, go to Finlandia House in Sudbury, you can't beat that, and that's non-profit," he said.
"I hope that the odd-time that you come here, and you walk away realizing what are the problems we face on an ongoing basis around the table, and the Mayor up there, that's all Im asking for," said Doody.
Councillor Mike Doody was less than enthused with some of Szczebonski's opinions. Andrew Autio for TimminsToday Szczebonski said the Golden Manor in fact doesn't perform well under ratings systems, like 'Quality Care Indicators', against the rest of Ontario.
"There's a lot better facilities in the province than the Golden Manor, a heck of a lot," he said.
"I've been in this city for 66 years. I know a lot of operational parts of this city as well, and I'll tell you, when you don't want to listen, you don't want to go and find out and get this information, that's the problem of council. That's the problem that the citizens have of this city. I hope that you go out there and get those figures, make a business case. I've never done anything in construction and so on without a business case. Show me something. You haven't shown me anything, on any of these things. Just by telling me that 'Its a great run facility' means nothing," said Szczebonski.
"Enron was a great run facility too, it went bankrupt. Anyways, thank you, I could carry on all night," he said.
"I'm sure you could," said Mayor Steve Black, who also stated that council voted on the privatization of the Golden Manor last year. The vote ended up 8-1 against the idea.
He also explained why Timmins, and other Northern Ontario cities are struggling.
"There are cities out there that aren't raising their taxes. But if you query those cities, most of them are seeing significant population growth. When you see high population growth, you see new taxpayers. More people paying into the pot, means you require less from each person. Northern Ontario has a stagnant population growth, its one of our biggest challenges, and why we need to look at attracting more people, diversifying our economy. We have a stagnant population growth, it has been for a number of years," said Black.
Dubeau made the final point of the discussion when he said that the KPMG report showed opportunities for $2.75 million dollars in savings.
"That is 3.5% percent lower taxes. We should be looking at that" he said.
Budget discussions will continue on December 14.